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we can't expect america with all its economic and other problems and with afghanistan to pull our chestnuts out of the fire. >> rose: but on the question of nato, secretary gates suggested as much. >> rose: indeed. indeed. witness again, you know, a few weeks of military action on a very small scale in libya... >> rose: and all of a sudden... >> and we're running out of munitions and turning back to the united states as the land of last rest. but look, frankly, the military action in libya which i supported, reluctantly but i supported, i actually a sideshow. the big question is can you turn egypt which had been historically at the heart of islamic culture and scholarship into a model and a beacon for threst of the arab world in. >> rose: and your answer is likely? unlikely? too soon to tell? >> look, i mean, there's amaze pog ten nshl egypt and then a highly educated young people, a strong middle-class, a great sense of history and tradition. but it could all go pear shaped between armyn the one hand which is now proving an unam big rouse friend of liberal democracy and the muslim brotherh
we can't expect america with all its economic and other problems and with afghanistan to pull our chestnuts out of the fire. >> rose: but on the question of nato, secretary gates suggested as much. >> rose: indeed. indeed. witness again, you know, a few weeks of military action on a very small scale in libya... >> rose: and all of a sudden... >> and we're running out of munitions and turning back to the united states as the land of last rest. but look, frankly, the...
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in afghanistan. um, can you talk a little bit about what pakistan's assessment is of that process now, not only the core group process, but reconciliation in general, reports of united states meetings with taliban officials? and, also, what pakistan can bring to the table. pakistan has talked frequently about needing to have a seat at the table. what do you bring to the table? the americans have said you need to, you need to, um, either sever your relationship, for example, with the haqqani network or bring them into this, into this process. what can pakistan do in order to make this process work better? >> first of all, we support a reconciliation in afghanistan because we understand that wars, essentially, always end through some kind of reconciliation and talks anyway. so the reconciliation process in afghanistan has to be led by the afghans. it's their country. and to bring to an end the internal conflict in afghanistan that started after the departure of the soviets way back, '89 the soviets wen
in afghanistan. um, can you talk a little bit about what pakistan's assessment is of that process now, not only the core group process, but reconciliation in general, reports of united states meetings with taliban officials? and, also, what pakistan can bring to the table. pakistan has talked frequently about needing to have a seat at the table. what do you bring to the table? the americans have said you need to, you need to, um, either sever your relationship, for example, with the haqqani...
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talks about president obama's plan to reduce troop numbers in afghanistan, and the security of the country, and the president and ceo financial literacy group discusses a recent poll that shows high school student strongly distressed financial service providers. that is live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> he had decided several days before mcanally arrived that he was going to kill him. he went out and bought a pistol, followed his whereabouts in the newspapers, reported in detail, and he began tracking him. >> on september 6, 1901, an anarchist fired two fatal shots at president william mckinley. sunday, scott miller looks at the president and his assassin and
talks about president obama's plan to reduce troop numbers in afghanistan, and the security of the country, and the president and ceo financial literacy group discusses a recent poll that shows high school student strongly distressed financial service providers. that is live at 7:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. >> he had decided several days before mcanally arrived that he was going to kill him. he went out and bought a pistol, followed his whereabouts in the newspapers, reported in detail,...
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we cannot do that." >> rose: with afghanistan? >> with afghanistan. am i doingin afghanistan gha what lyndon johnson did in vietnam 40 years before. >> rose: my assumption in the surge in part-- and you assume he thinks it has strategic significance and importance there because you don't want afghanistato be a haven for terrism d at the same time when he was going through this there were only, like, 100 members of al qaeda that there. allknow that. my assumption has always been just your point. i think he was influenced by the idea that, look i'm not sure this is going to work but i'm not prepared not to the do it and see what the consequens are. i'm mo prepared to do in the this case because i've described this as a war of choice... i've described this as a war of necessity, not choice, as iq was characterized a aar choice. >> i think you're absolutely on it and what we tried to do literally in chapter 9 of this book is to describe the mind-set of obama when he was handling time and time again questions relating to afghanistan. for example, in the su
we cannot do that." >> rose: with afghanistan? >> with afghanistan. am i doingin afghanistan gha what lyndon johnson did in vietnam 40 years before. >> rose: my assumption in the surge in part-- and you assume he thinks it has strategic significance and importance there because you don't want afghanistato be a haven for terrism d at the same time when he was going through this there were only, like, 100 members of al qaeda that there. allknow that. my assumption has...
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colonel anthony shaffer his book operation dark heart spy craft and special ops on the frontlines of afghanistan and the path to victory was the target of a censorship attempt by the kind of gone after they tried to buy up all ten thousand copies before approving the censored version he is currently a senior fellow at the center for advanced defense studies and slogan is innovation for peace tony thanks so much for being with us driving back adam all right so with this in context for us please the u.s. cyber command been around for a couple years now with hacking heating up accusations with china being involved what is the significance of the u.s. cyber command in the overall department offense that picture why i think that's part of the problem it's not significant by the fact that they're they're playing catch up what we're doing now and i think it's significant that if we're talking about three zero what happened to one do they not exist well they didn't get it and that's part of the problem that we're talking about today were issues we dealt with back in the ninety's and what is ironic here
colonel anthony shaffer his book operation dark heart spy craft and special ops on the frontlines of afghanistan and the path to victory was the target of a censorship attempt by the kind of gone after they tried to buy up all ten thousand copies before approving the censored version he is currently a senior fellow at the center for advanced defense studies and slogan is innovation for peace tony thanks so much for being with us driving back adam all right so with this in context for us please...
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i want to move on to afghanistan. you had a very interesting piece in "the new york times" in which you said that the administration should take its cues in terms of its withdraw in afghanistan from nixon and kissinger's withdrawal from vietnam. that is not usually looked upon as a model of success. so explain what you meant. >> nixon and kissinger tried to extricate the united states from the war in vietnam. they knew they weren't going to win. they were going to lose. they tried to tiptoe away and leave the local parties to keep fighting by themselves. it almost worked. but after the u.s. got out, the whole house of cards came falling down because congress wouldn't let the government support saigon because the local parties weren't able to defend themselves and so forth. i think essentially, if the obama administration can tiptoe out of the ground combat in afghanistan while continuing to support the regime in kabul and continuing to bash the enemies and so forth, essentially you could get extrication even as essent
i want to move on to afghanistan. you had a very interesting piece in "the new york times" in which you said that the administration should take its cues in terms of its withdraw in afghanistan from nixon and kissinger's withdrawal from vietnam. that is not usually looked upon as a model of success. so explain what you meant. >> nixon and kissinger tried to extricate the united states from the war in vietnam. they knew they weren't going to win. they were going to lose. they...
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government would then afghanistan. -- within afghanistan. they are overseen eventually by the undersecretary for defense. >> i want to know who was in charge of the plan. so when you decide we're going to spend $500 million, $400 million -- i guess that is another question. how much is $17 billion, much of it will come from defense and, to that will come from state? >> i can speak for u.s. aid. i believe the request for u.s. aid assistance is around the $3 billion level. >> the president is asking for $17 billion in 2012 for reconstruction. does anybody here know how much of that is going to be under control of the defense department and a much is going to be under control of the state department? >> again, i can say $3 billion from u.s. aid, and possibly another $1 billion from the state department. but i cannot speak to the rest. >> is that from the defense department, mr. sedney? >> the department of defense budget and the subcommittee has funding for operations in afghanistan which include funding for the afghan security forces. about $1
government would then afghanistan. -- within afghanistan. they are overseen eventually by the undersecretary for defense. >> i want to know who was in charge of the plan. so when you decide we're going to spend $500 million, $400 million -- i guess that is another question. how much is $17 billion, much of it will come from defense and, to that will come from state? >> i can speak for u.s. aid. i believe the request for u.s. aid assistance is around the $3 billion level. >>...
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and then in afghanistan. i was only able to meet a small sample of those deployed downrange, it was important for me to look them in the eye one last time and let them know how much i care about them and appreciate what they and their families do for our country. looking forward to this moment, i knew it would be difficult to adequately express my feelings for these young men and women. at least in a way that would allow me to get through this speech. yesterday a personal message from me to all of our servicemen and women around the world was published and distributed through military channels. i will just say here that i will think of these young warriors, the ones who fought, the ones who keep on fighting, the ones who never made it back, until the end of my days. as as contemplating this moment, i thought about something becky told me in january of 2005 when i was asked to be the first director of national intelligence. i was wrestling with the decision and finally told her she could make it easier if she
and then in afghanistan. i was only able to meet a small sample of those deployed downrange, it was important for me to look them in the eye one last time and let them know how much i care about them and appreciate what they and their families do for our country. looking forward to this moment, i knew it would be difficult to adequately express my feelings for these young men and women. at least in a way that would allow me to get through this speech. yesterday a personal message from me to all...
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special envoy to afghanistan. his new book is called the wars of afghanistan. please welcome to the problem peter tomsen. have a seat. >> thank you. >> jon: my first question to you is simply this. really? (laughter) really? >> it's pretty big. >> jon: really? >> yeah (laughter) don't drop it on your toe. >> jon: let me ask you this, volume 2, what period of wars does this cover and how much of the amazon is now gone? (laughter) what period of wars are we dealing with her. >> actually it's six, two in the 19th century, one in the early 20th century, and the rest with the soviet invasion and afterwards. >> jon: starting in '79. >> right. >> jon: what is so alluringly invadable about-- (laughter) >> jon: afghanistan because everyone seems to want to do it they don't have oil. they don't appear to have mineral wealth, although i think they've recently discovered that. they appear to just have a tightly knit group of tribes who don't care for being invaded. >> exactly. and in our case we called it an intervention. some call it an invasion. the big, the most importa
special envoy to afghanistan. his new book is called the wars of afghanistan. please welcome to the problem peter tomsen. have a seat. >> thank you. >> jon: my first question to you is simply this. really? (laughter) really? >> it's pretty big. >> jon: really? >> yeah (laughter) don't drop it on your toe. >> jon: let me ask you this, volume 2, what period of wars does this cover and how much of the amazon is now gone? (laughter) what period of wars are we...
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heavily tribal region into a pro-american one the american people know it seems that the people of afghanistan know it so when will our representatives get them out on. all right so our featured tonight with contempt for government at an all time high more and more americans are attracted to the message of presidential candidate ron paul but more important than the messenger is the message and many who come to ron paul's philosophy from my idealistic generation the millennial take that message to its extreme logical conclusion or are at least asking and we'd be better off with no government at this point one of our contenders in the first match up tonight is his philosopher savant while winning is ron paul's message of conservative libertarianism is the gateway many consider mahler's massive to be what is on the other side our other contender taking a side of conservatism is our own jake negative neo con nancy delivered oh now he's not really a neo codon but he is a conservative a certified theologian with a degree in divinity a marine veteran of iraq and afghanistan and a proud registered rep
heavily tribal region into a pro-american one the american people know it seems that the people of afghanistan know it so when will our representatives get them out on. all right so our featured tonight with contempt for government at an all time high more and more americans are attracted to the message of presidential candidate ron paul but more important than the messenger is the message and many who come to ron paul's philosophy from my idealistic generation the millennial take that message...
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>> we can talk about afghanistan later. >> life, whatever. well, i don want to get t life. >> now that everydy has sort of worked through their issues and it has become clear that something i think they believed with speaker boehner, but it will come around to something like a $2 trillion package or come up with $2 trillion in vings that will extend the debt limitation. >> that's what the administration believes? that's their revised hope? >> i believe that's true, yes. now, that said, i think that no one involved in this right now really has a good handle on where the boats are and nobody has really seen anyone like that. >> in the congratulate or the implications for this in a political season? >> both. number one i don think anybody knows what can pass right now. because you have -- for example say this 2 trillion-dollar dales. for most democrats it will involve soig medicarend medicaid savings and significant cuts in domestic spending they -- you can't pullhat out of the economy, not the revenues they were hoping for. the overwhelming num
>> we can talk about afghanistan later. >> life, whatever. well, i don want to get t life. >> now that everydy has sort of worked through their issues and it has become clear that something i think they believed with speaker boehner, but it will come around to something like a $2 trillion package or come up with $2 trillion in vings that will extend the debt limitation. >> that's what the administration believes? that's their revised hope? >> i believe that's true,...
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he's been a key voice on everything from the thdrawal in afghanistan to u.s. relationships with china. the los angeles angels of anaheim has written apart from the firs family there may b no one who spends more time than donilon. as the u.s. faces economic challenges at home and rapid changes abroad with an arab spring, the white houshas made its mission to restore american prestige and influence and power around the world. i'm pleased t have tom donilon at this table for the first time welcome. >> thank you, charlie, great to be here. good to see you. >> rose: there's so much to talk about in limited time. we could spend 30 minutes just talking about your biography and your friendship with warren christopher, the clinton administration, all of that. you combine policy and politics in earlier careers and now it's the focus of the united states and its relationship with the world. how do you view the mission? because you said you wanted to restore america's credibility, its influence, its respect, and its power. >> well, i think that's exactly right, and that i
he's been a key voice on everything from the thdrawal in afghanistan to u.s. relationships with china. the los angeles angels of anaheim has written apart from the firs family there may b no one who spends more time than donilon. as the u.s. faces economic challenges at home and rapid changes abroad with an arab spring, the white houshas made its mission to restore american prestige and influence and power around the world. i'm pleased t have tom donilon at this table for the first time...
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president obama's surge in afghanistan worked pretty well. everyone agreed we were going to draw down. i'm worried he's drawing down too fast and abruptly. i wish he followed general petraeus' recommendation but everybody agrees we'll be out of the combat portion of it by 2014. >> jon: as a country, do you feel like this is proof positive that our whole mentality about fighting the war on terror has been wrong for 10 years? would you say now-- would you-- would you stand and face the camera and say-- and-- and-- button your coat-- and say, oh, my god. i had this so completely wrong, guys. >> no. >> jon: bout butt how can-- >> the whole country has been engaged in this. and i think on the whole doing the right thing. look, a war-- a world in which americans have to fight and have to be, in effect, the kind of world policemen is a difficult world for us. god knows we all hate to see young american men and women go over there and fight and get wounded and die. on the other hand, a world in which we don't do that is a more dangerous world. >> jon
president obama's surge in afghanistan worked pretty well. everyone agreed we were going to draw down. i'm worried he's drawing down too fast and abruptly. i wish he followed general petraeus' recommendation but everybody agrees we'll be out of the combat portion of it by 2014. >> jon: as a country, do you feel like this is proof positive that our whole mentality about fighting the war on terror has been wrong for 10 years? would you say now-- would you-- would you stand and face the...
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not just from iraq and afghanistan, but we have half a million troops in bases across the world. >> piers: how many do the chinese have? >> none. they don't have troops. because they know this is not the way you achieve agemny in this world. >> piers: i did a documentary in shanghai recently. fascinating time to be out there. this dynamism that you felt along the city. one frosting young multi millionaire, 125,000 millionaires in shanghai alone. >> how many. >> 125,000 millionaires in shanghai. he said i don't want to kill you. i don't want to take over your land. i want to sell you a duvet. i want to tell you everything in your home but i don't want to kill you. >> that's how they will be number one. they are building $300 billion of high speed rail. this country trying to get the money to build, i think it's $8 billion. they want to lay it between l.a. and las vegas, which i think it's funny that those are the two cities that have to be connected ed connected, but we have none. >> piers: i'm going to ask you which of these two people have the best chance of putting america back on its f
not just from iraq and afghanistan, but we have half a million troops in bases across the world. >> piers: how many do the chinese have? >> none. they don't have troops. because they know this is not the way you achieve agemny in this world. >> piers: i did a documentary in shanghai recently. fascinating time to be out there. this dynamism that you felt along the city. one frosting young multi millionaire, 125,000 millionaires in shanghai alone. >> how many. >>...
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he fought in iraq and afghanistan, just got out last february. handsome jerry berry, the chopper pilot, still handsome. these are the boys on the roof. burn battles. anything they could not burn, they put in the burn barrels and the chemicals burned it. who is that, steve? is that you? [laughter] that's steve. he's counting that cash he stole. [laughter] iconic photo. everything -- 18 hours before -- yes, ma'am? >> especially from the story that you're telling now, but how well do you think that our president nixon, gerald ford, and then johnson, how well do you think they knew what was going on in >> i think they knew very well. >> you do? you think their information was accurate? >> oh, yeah. they admitted this was a civil war we shouldn't have ever got involved in. the dichotomy of the book, people asked me how can we put the word "heroic" in the book about the vietnam war. i'm not writing about the vietnam war. that's been written about by smarter people than me. i'm writing about a heroic evacuation, a 36-hour period where kids like steve, o
he fought in iraq and afghanistan, just got out last february. handsome jerry berry, the chopper pilot, still handsome. these are the boys on the roof. burn battles. anything they could not burn, they put in the burn barrels and the chemicals burned it. who is that, steve? is that you? [laughter] that's steve. he's counting that cash he stole. [laughter] iconic photo. everything -- 18 hours before -- yes, ma'am? >> especially from the story that you're telling now, but how well do you...
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eklil hakimi on the plan to withdraw 30,000 troops from afghanistan by september, 2012. and after that, dan iannicola of the financial literacy group talks about financial service providers. plus your emails, phone calls and tweets. washington journal, live saturday at 7:00 a.m. eastern here on c-span. >> tune in to c-span this independence day. writer misme lind and other panelists discuss if the united states can remain ninalted. >> at the political level, we're more divided. if you look at partisan polarization than at any point since the civil war in reconstruction. >> then the dalai lama and sister helen prajean talk about religion, violence and the death penalty and nixon white house insiders discuss his presidency's foreign policy. this monday, july 4, beginning at 10:00 a.m. eastern on c-span. for the complete schedule of programs and times go to c-span.org. this fourth of july three-day weekend on american history tv on c-span three. we'll visit the smithsonian museum of natural history to learn about a 19th century u.s. government expedition to circumnavigate t
eklil hakimi on the plan to withdraw 30,000 troops from afghanistan by september, 2012. and after that, dan iannicola of the financial literacy group talks about financial service providers. plus your emails, phone calls and tweets. washington journal, live saturday at 7:00 a.m. eastern here on c-span. >> tune in to c-span this independence day. writer misme lind and other panelists discuss if the united states can remain ninalted. >> at the political level, we're more divided. if...
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forces from afghanistan. i speak today as the daughter of a lieutenant colonel who fought in several wars, one who knows the trauma and devastation of wars on families. i want to be clear that our service men and women have performed with incredible courage and commitment in afghanistan. they're doing everything we ask them to do. but the truth is, they have been put in an impossible position. they are fighting in a way with no military solution an no end in sight. only a political and diplomatic solution and a regional stabilization strategy will end this war. in fact, this concern of war without end is why i oppose the resolution authorizing military force on september 14, 2001. it began a series of of blank checks that we have been writing for nearly a decade there. there are few things we know with certainty regarding the situation of afghanistan. we know that corruption persists unabated and in many cases has been fueled by the u.s. occupation and influx of foreign cash. president karzai has proven himse
forces from afghanistan. i speak today as the daughter of a lieutenant colonel who fought in several wars, one who knows the trauma and devastation of wars on families. i want to be clear that our service men and women have performed with incredible courage and commitment in afghanistan. they're doing everything we ask them to do. but the truth is, they have been put in an impossible position. they are fighting in a way with no military solution an no end in sight. only a political and...
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. >> rose: owednesday president obama will announce how many troo will bring home from afghanistan beginning next month. the announcement follows months of debate in the white house, it comes with increasing concern in the war andure role in the country. the administration fac a number of challenges at home. unemployment remains high at 9.1%. the housing market continues to suffer and the u.s. debt has surpassed 14 trillion dollars. all of this will pose a significant challenge for the president in the 2012 eltion. joining me now a group of comments from the new york time from washington david brooks, with me here in new york, david leonhardt, roger cohen and tom friedman. they have all won too many awards to talk about. mi pleased to have all of them on this program today to talk about america. what's the challenge for us? because wherever i go around the world the thing they say is tt we want america to take care of their business at home first, so that they can lead the world and pla an important part as the rest of the world changes. >> well, charlie, i think the world does understan tha
. >> rose: owednesday president obama will announce how many troo will bring home from afghanistan beginning next month. the announcement follows months of debate in the white house, it comes with increasing concern in the war andure role in the country. the administration fac a number of challenges at home. unemployment remains high at 9.1%. the housing market continues to suffer and the u.s. debt has surpassed 14 trillion dollars. all of this will pose a significant challenge for the...
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it can proje power militarily so in afghanistan and libya. president sarkozy is wanting the g-8 this year but it' only the size of texas and with an economy that's probably the size ofalifnia. >> charlie: yes. how is he doing? president sarkozy. >> we're in a period of track cision, in part because of what happened because of -- who could have been the social es party candidate and wa leading inhe poll in any combination >> charlie: against sarkozy. >> exactly. it's out of the picture. even though tzar -- tzar sarkozy -- >> charlie: at the likely to be the nominee. >> no clue. i would like to see francois who is really smart and funny and not seductive enough for the french people. >> charlie: he was head of the socialist party and his wife, n his wife -- >> father of their four children. >> charlie: she got the nomination. >> right. >> charlie: is she still going to run or not? theye no longetogether and he could be running and she could be running and they were -- >> she would like to run again. but there's another woman in the picture who
it can proje power militarily so in afghanistan and libya. president sarkozy is wanting the g-8 this year but it' only the size of texas and with an economy that's probably the size ofalifnia. >> charlie: yes. how is he doing? president sarkozy. >> we're in a period of track cision, in part because of what happened because of -- who could have been the social es party candidate and wa leading inhe poll in any combination >> charlie: against sarkozy. >> exactly. it's out...
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are the bondholders more important than the sergeant in afghanistan? that's a tough decision to make. those are the kinds of choices that have to be made, the kind of contingency plans that the treasury is mapping out today. it really terribly dangerous. >> let me ask you, before i turn to bigger issues, what are the political consequences for the president, for the speaker of the house, and for those republicans who are taking a hard-line in the house of representatives? >> well, i mean, i think the president believes that because public opinion is more on his side than on the republican de, particularly on the shape of a big plan or who has been less willing to compromise, that they feel that almost any outcome is likely to be beneficial to the president politically. i think that when he went on the tv on monday night, his speech was aimed at the independence that the white house is -- independents that the white house is so focused on to convince them he's the reasonable player in this. i'm not sure that that's necessarily the case when we come out
are the bondholders more important than the sergeant in afghanistan? that's a tough decision to make. those are the kinds of choices that have to be made, the kind of contingency plans that the treasury is mapping out today. it really terribly dangerous. >> let me ask you, before i turn to bigger issues, what are the political consequences for the president, for the speaker of the house, and for those republicans who are taking a hard-line in the house of representatives? >> well, i...
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, there will be no regional compact piece for afghanistan. >> but beyond just afghanistan >>óqptf@& working together and do business together. $1.3 trillion economy is a big market for the utah and there lots of talk about investment opportunities during mrs. clinton's visit. >> you're watching "newsday." still to come on the program, the aid agency that had controversy by handing out less aid in uganda. >> and murdoch and sons prepare to answer questions about phone hacking corruption. we assess the future of news corp. south africans have celebrated former president's nelson mandela 93rd birthday. he spent the day with family in his home village where he was also visited by the president. millions of school children sang him a special birthday song before lessons began. >> smiling and surrounded by family members, these photos show mandiba as he is affectionately called with his family, three generations of them. the elderly statesman celebrated on monday with a party of school children at his home in his childhood village. [happy birthday to you ♪ >> across the country, school children
, there will be no regional compact piece for afghanistan. >> but beyond just afghanistan >>óqptf@& working together and do business together. $1.3 trillion economy is a big market for the utah and there lots of talk about investment opportunities during mrs. clinton's visit. >> you're watching "newsday." still to come on the program, the aid agency that had controversy by handing out less aid in uganda. >> and murdoch and sons prepare to answer questions...
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we have to invade afghanistan because they were harboring terrorists a low florida yes they trained florida in the new york times actually reported that the f.b.i. conducted an official investigation into this and when they finish their investigation what they do they sealed it they classified it and they. made sure it didn't come out because they're covering up evidence i mean charlie beach likes to claim that it was gross incompetence that the administration was stupid that this happened but there's so many clear documented pieces of evidence just like this newsweek article that stated pentagon officials got warnings on september tenth two thousand and one telling them not to fly in the northeast with commercial airlines because something was going to happen and this is not the first time this happened with mayor willie brown just like reported by the san francisco chronicle had a flight to new york city on september eleventh he got a phone call canceled his flight later on pacifica radio he admitted condo lisa rice actually gave him those warnings so this is not incompetence this
we have to invade afghanistan because they were harboring terrorists a low florida yes they trained florida in the new york times actually reported that the f.b.i. conducted an official investigation into this and when they finish their investigation what they do they sealed it they classified it and they. made sure it didn't come out because they're covering up evidence i mean charlie beach likes to claim that it was gross incompetence that the administration was stupid that this happened but...